The most common argument from gay
marriage supporters is that they are fighting for “marriage equality” and “equal
rights” for gays and lesbians. This is a
very typical approach from the Left: framing an argument in terms of social justice
and cloaking themselves in Civil Rights-era rhetoric. They are so
high-minded as to say that supporters of gay marriage are on “the right side of
history.”
Unfortunately, their arrogance and
belief in their own superiority is quite revealing of their ignorance. In reality, the gay marriage argument has
absolutely nothing to do with equality. As a refresher, equality is about ensuring we do not treat one group of individuals differently than another group based on some
arbitrary feature, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.
Different Rules
For example, when black people were forced to use separate bathrooms, separate drinking fountains, and separate lunch counters than white people, this was clear discrimination and clear unequal treatment. To ask someone of a different race to attend a different school than white students, or to force black customers to sit at the back of the bus, demonstrates clear inequality. One group (blacks) is required to do something different than another (whites) based solely on skin color.
For example, when black people were forced to use separate bathrooms, separate drinking fountains, and separate lunch counters than white people, this was clear discrimination and clear unequal treatment. To ask someone of a different race to attend a different school than white students, or to force black customers to sit at the back of the bus, demonstrates clear inequality. One group (blacks) is required to do something different than another (whites) based solely on skin color.
In another example, women were demonstrably treated unequally when they were forbidden by law from voting. Men had the right and responsibility to vote, while women were forbidden from casting a ballot. By basing the right to vote solely on gender, our government had made a decision to treat one group of individuals (women) different than another (men).
The average gay marriage supporter
will respond that this is exactly the situation we have in the U.S. today:
heterosexuals can marry whomever they choose, while homosexuals may not. When framed this way, it certainly appears
that equality for homosexuals is the issue, but it is an improper framing of
the argument. The real question is whether homosexuals and heterosexuals
have to follow the same rules, or if they are subject to different rules.
Same Rules
Consider a homosexual man who wants to marry another man. Under current law, the two men are forbidden from marrying. Yet, a heterosexual man is also forbidden from marrying another man. Consider also, the heterosexual man is free to marry any woman he chooses, as is any homosexual man. The fact that the homosexual man doesn’t want to marry a woman or a heterosexual man doesn’t want to marry a man is irrelevant. A woman may not want to vote, but we recognize her rights and apply the same rules to men and women. In terms of equal treatment under the law, it should be clear that homosexuals and heterosexuals are being treated exactly the same way.
Consider a homosexual man who wants to marry another man. Under current law, the two men are forbidden from marrying. Yet, a heterosexual man is also forbidden from marrying another man. Consider also, the heterosexual man is free to marry any woman he chooses, as is any homosexual man. The fact that the homosexual man doesn’t want to marry a woman or a heterosexual man doesn’t want to marry a man is irrelevant. A woman may not want to vote, but we recognize her rights and apply the same rules to men and women. In terms of equal treatment under the law, it should be clear that homosexuals and heterosexuals are being treated exactly the same way.
Some will accuse me of avoiding
the issue, but what I am trying to do is clarify the issue. Gay marriage has never been an issue of
equality because the traditional definition of marriage applies equally to both
heterosexuals and homosexuals. The real issue is the disparate impact that
homosexuals suffer under laws upholding the traditional definition of marriage. ( I have covered the very real issue of disparate impact elsewhere, so I won’t repeat it here.)
I am
personally a supporter of gay marriage, but not under the false argument of equality. It’s clear to me that homosexuals suffer unnecessarily
by not being able to marry whom they love, and the only justification is that
this is how it’s always been done. We
should allow gays to marry, but we should not fool ourselves into believing we
are righting some form of inequality when we do it.

Dear Heathen Republican,
ReplyDeleteIt's an interesting argument, certainly one I have not come across elsewhere. My issue with that argument is how much hold that would have in persuading people to change their minds. I've phrased my primary argument for gay marriage in terms of contract rights. If two consenting adults sign a contract saying that they want to combine their assets and live a stable life together, they should be able to do so, regardless of sexual orientation. Given the libertarian rhetoric used in this country and quoting of the Founding Fathers in the political realm, gay marriage certainly acts as a litmus test to determine to whether Americans truly believe in "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness."
Consider a homosexual man who wants to marry another man. Under current law, the two men are forbidden from marrying. Yet, a heterosexual man is also forbidden from marrying another man.
ReplyDeleteI have answered this before, but you refused two acknowledge it the two other times you made this argument.
You are trying to convert the real world issue into a semantic game:
Muslims cannot worship Allah in mosques. Christians also cannot worship Allah in Mosques.
Both groups are free to worship Jesus in Churches and neither group can worship Allah in Mosques. Therefore, there is no violation of equality or social justice in our Christian nation making a law that people cannot worship Allah in Mosques.
So I take it you support anti-miscegination laws, as well then, right? I mean, sure a black man couldn't marry a white woman, but a white man couldn't marry a black woman, either, so it wasn't a question of equality, it was just a disparate impact. What a terrible argument.
ReplyDelete"I have answered this before, but you refused two acknowledge it the two other times you made this argument.
ReplyDelete"You are trying to convert the real world issue into a semantic game:
"Muslims cannot worship Allah in mosques. Christians also cannot worship Allah in Mosques."
John, this post is a direct rebuttal, so you can stop accusing me of ignoring your comments. You simply refuse to admit that you're arguing disparate impact, not equality.
It's really not complicated, so I don't understand your inability to grasp the difference. A ban on marrying someone of the same sex affects homosexuals and heterosexuals equally in that they all play by the same rule. Therefore, it's not an issue of inequality.
Your argument is that this identical rule harms homosexuals more than heterosexuals, to which I agree. But that's not an argument about equality; it's an argument about disparate impact.
In essence, we agree. Yet you insist on using the social justice rhetoric of the Left. Inappropriately, I might add.
Yes, it is not a semantic game. Words do have meanings, and if some of us like to shift the meanings of words willy-nilly, and insist that it is a bad thing to ignore what things really mean, then communication is lost. And what should be an intelligent debate becomes a game of "Calvinball".
DeleteViciousChops,
ReplyDelete"So I take it you support anti-miscegination laws, as well then, right? I mean, sure a black man couldn't marry a white woman, but a white man couldn't marry a black woman, either, so it wasn't a question of equality, it was just a disparate impact. What a terrible argument."
You completely misunderstand. You are describing a true inequality, which I would naturally oppose. Did you think I was saying that I oppose disparate impact but support inequality?
Steve,
ReplyDelete"My issue with that argument is how much hold that would have in persuading people to change their minds."
Lies are also very persuasive, but that isn't a reason to propagate them. I think the equality argument is a lie and a standard tactic of the left, so it's worth debunking. I think disparate impact is a better argument, even if it's not as persuasive.
A ban on marrying someone of the same sex affects homosexuals and heterosexuals equally in that they all play by the same rule. Therefore, it's not an issue of inequality.
ReplyDeleteYou still have not addressed the rebuttal. Why is not a ban on worshipping Allah the not an issue of social justice or inequality, since it applies to both Christians and Muslims equally?
ViciousChops,
You did not misunderstand at all and your question is a very good one. The thing you describe is really the same scenario.
"Why is not a ban on worshipping Allah the not an issue of social justice or inequality"
Delete1) Social justice and inequality are separate issues. HR is not arguing about the first, but merely about the equality issue.
2) Christians all worship Allah. So your analogy is strange.
John, it's as though we aren't even speaking the same language. All I can do is repeat myself, but that obviously won't work. One of us is either being obstinate or insincere. I know that I'm doing neither intentionally, so perhaps we need a translator. I can't make my point any clearer than I have.
ReplyDelete"You still have not addressed the rebuttal."
ReplyDeleteJohn, there is no need for me to answer. You said:
"Why is not a ban on worshipping Allah the (sic) not an issue of social justice or inequality, since it applies to both Christians and Muslims equally?"
You have acknowledged that the ban "applies to both" equally. This is also my argument. Since the ban applies equally, it's not an issue of inequality. We agree.
You argue that Muslims are more harmed than Christians. I agree. This is disparate impact. An equally applied rule harms one group more than another. Same as with gay marriage. Again, we agree.
Why are you so invested in using the word "equality" in your arguments when equality so clearly is not the issue?
(Please stop claiming I am ignoring your rebuttals. This is probably the fifth time, and probably the fifth time you will ignore my response.)
"Why is not a ban on worshipping Allah the (sic) not an issue of social justice or inequality, since it applies to both Christians and Muslims equally?"
DeleteYou have acknowledged that the ban "applies to both" equally. This is also my argument. Since the ban applies equally, it's not an issue of inequality. We agree.
So, your position is now made clear. Your argument is not something that many people would think was logical. Discrimination and equality cannot dance to the same tango. Religious equality and religious discrimination are incompatible. Good luck trying to promote this argument.
Why are you so invested in using the word "equality" in your arguments when equality so clearly is not the issue?
Because the nation has fought hard for equal rights and has not fought, and arguably cannot always justly fight, for disparate impact, a banner that could be used to conceal liberal intentions concerning entitlements, taxation and just about anything else. It is abstract idea that could be used to justify most social arguments, both the good and the bad. In other words, it is a weak argument, whereas the reality of inequality is obvious and a very strong argument.
(Please stop claiming I am ignoring your rebuttals. This is probably the fifth time, and probably the fifth time you will ignore my response.)
I repeatedly tried to get you to admit that your argument was the same kind of logic as religious discrimination: Here, Here, and Here.
I commend you for your current confession, but I deny that you had ever addressed my question before. You have been evading it since September of 2011. You have now explained that you see no inequality in either scenario. Your wisdom is clear.
HR, I think I get what you're saying, but I get what your detractors are saying as well. Ultimately, I have to wonder whether there's really a worthwhile point in this. If it's about "disparate impact" rather than "inequality" couldn't one say that a disparate impact is simply a form of inequality?
ReplyDeleteI mean, what really is the difference between the two? Is it even significant enough to bother? From where I'm at, it seems like semantics.
Lance, words mean things. No one should be allowed to devalue the language. Inequality is a very serious subject. Is it right when people shout "inequality" where none truly exists? Is it right when people shout "racism" where none truly exists?
ReplyDeleteActual racism and actual inequality are problems that need to be addressed. If any opposition to a president is called racism, the word has lost its meaning. If we are allowed to label any problem we see as inequality, the word itself loses its meaning.
By misdiagnosing the problem, we will come up with the wrong solution. So no, I don't think its an issue of semantics.
Just trying to make sure I'm getting it straight then: you don't see disparate impact as a form of inequality?
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you say about devaluing language, and it bothers me when I hear people do it. However, this seems more like a case of: "That's not a dog! It's a German Shepherd!"
Lance,
ReplyDeleteBy calling it "disparate impact" we get away from the "charge of inequality." If disparate impact is to be avoided, then we should figure out how much of a real world sacrifice a waitress has to make paying her taxes. If this ends up being 75% of her disposable income, then those who are against disparate impact would have to also pay that. Donald Trump 75% of his disposable income, which is really 75% of his total income, as it is almost all disposable.
Disparate impact should always be considered, but not in cases where the law is discriminatory, and it should not be treated as an absolute. Inequality is easier to consider, more easily understood and more easily rectified.
Mr. Heathen has primarily hitched his wagon to the concept that there is no inequality in cases where liberals see it. We can use his reasoning to support religious discrimination, racial discrimination and sexual orientation discrimination. If we follow his logic, virtually all discrimination could be justified with his new definition of equality. It would then be incumbent upon us to no longer consider equality and only consider impact. There is a fundamental problem: with taxation, entitlements and most social issues, conservatives renounce impact as a concern, and often label concern as "socialism" and then denounce liberal policy based on the label they arbitrarily assigned. They can do this easily. They have but to say: "words mean something."
John, your dishonesty knows no bounds. My rebuttal was posted on this site on December 22, 2011. Just because you don't understand the argument does not mean I didn't make one.
ReplyDeleteYou have agreed with my argument in every possible way, yet continues to argue that gay marriage is an issue of equality. That's inexplicable, and you offer no reasons for this except to lob accusations at me. You have lost your reason.
Because you have made this such a repetitive thread, I have no further responses for you unless you can offer something new.
I re-read your "rebuttal" in December. You sort of tried to answer it (not explicit as you did today), but I can see that you believed you had answered (if not rebutted) the challenge.
DeleteYes, I agree that there is disparate impact. That does nothing to prove that there is no inequality. I do not agree with your thesis, so I have not agreed with "argument in every possible way”). You have done nothing to demonstrate equality other than to imply because the syntax of the statement does not specifically mention gays, there is no inequality, even if the law makes it impossible for them to marry whom they choose. I believe this is a fallacious childish understanding of what "equality" means. You think you have found a semantic argument to "show" that there was no inequality and therefore, no social injustice that inequality would imply. You then say, "the problem is disparate impact," which, as I explained to Lance, could be used to discredit most conservative philosophy, were it to go there. You use it to discredit this single thing, though, because it fits with your current personal philosophy. I don't reject that there is disparate impact. That often happens when laws discriminate. I simply reject your logic as sound.
Lance, I don't see disparate impact as an issue of equality. It's a form of discrimination, but not all discrimination is the result of an equal rights violation.
ReplyDeleteYou're still making stupid arguments to prevent people from just living their lives the way they want to?
ReplyDeleteOh Republicans... how you never learn...
Bret, such intrusions are much more common in Democratic policies.
DeleteBret, I don't think you read the post. Do you think I'm coming out against gay marriage?
ReplyDeleteHR, you're very good at logic and language and so I'm going to assume that there's a fair amount of consistency here. But, to me, if a person is forbidden from marrying the person that they love (heterosexual men do not fall in love with other men), that's an inequality issue.
ReplyDeleteWill: That's been my main problem with HR's argument, but I didn't know how to word it.
DeleteI'm gay. I'm married. Yes, it's a same sex marriage.
ReplyDeleteI'm a registered Republican that voted for Mitt Romney. My husband and I both did. I completely agree with what you're saying here.
I feel very strongly about the tenth Amendment. The federal government has a job, and that job is not to take power away from citizens by taking power away from the states. My rights would be exponentially safer under a President that respects my voice by respecting the 10th Amendment. Being granted special rights at the expense of the 10th Amendment is unconstitutional.
What you're saying here - that it is not about equality, however it is clear that homosexuals suffer needlessly by not being able to marry - is true, and I believe this is addressed in the constitution under federalism. Basically, it is my understanding that when these kinds of things are re-evaluated like the definition of marriage, unforeseen at the time of the writing of the constitution, the people are guaranteed their freedoms by being heard at the state level. That is where our voice is. That is how I'm married right now.
The federal government is not allowed to strip us of that power. That doesn't change just because a group of people happen to agree with the end result, this time.
I voted for the type of government and for the process that I believe in, as a gay man and as many other things. I'm a small business owner. I'm someone that did not get bailed out. I'm someone that watched the second plane hit. I'm someone that's concerned with our diplomats being unsafe overseas, and all of my friends that can't find jobs, and building my own future, and China, and Libya, and government spending, and controlling my own healthcare. I am someone that's going to grow old in this country.
Look, I realize I'm very lucky. I'm 26, I have lived in two states, both of which have legalized gay marriage. I realize gay men twice my age paid the price for me to be in a same sex marriage today. I appreciate that and I mean no disrespect. But there's a way to do this. And that way isn't by emotionally saying it's equality and giving up even more of our rights to the government.
I can certainly appreciate how hard you worked on twisting things out of context enough to fit into the box you wanted it to. It didn't work, but you certainly worked very hard at trying.
ReplyDeleteYou need to understand two things. First, it is about civil union rather than marriage. By defining "traditional marriage" and "non-tranditional marriage" you already discriminate between those unions. Second, marriage is not marrying a man or a woman, but a partner. So Heterosexual males can marry their partner but homesexual men cannot.
ReplyDeleteFinally, if suddenly because of the content your blog would be blocked to some who read and to others who do not, you cannot say that that both are treated the same and there is no discrimination to those who read your blog. If your blog were blocked, ALL would be discriminated. Just like heterosexual males are now discriminated by not having the ability to marry other males; in most cases they would not do it but does not change the fact that this right has been taken away from them.